Bloodbowl.net Chat Logs
Date: Saturday, January 27th, 2001

Time: 12:00 noon EST (GMT -5:00)
Subject: Blood Bowl Magazine & OSPA

 

Moderators


Milo
jklewis

Attendees


Fnolan
Bbcwebmaster
Bevan
CeleTheReferee
Death
Elmo
Georgemoe
Gregg
Ioda
Jim
Mets676
Pinkhorror
Ratz
Razorwing
Scorch
Stevenc
Tamdrik
TomAnders
bjm
jaylazer
jkarr
mecki
msheaf1
zim

Guests


Jervis Johnson
Andy Hall

Chat Transcript


[LOGIN] Ratz
[LOGIN] Ratz
[LOGIN] Pinkhorror
[LOGIN] Ratz
[LOGIN] Ratz
[LOGIN] Mets676
Mets676: \
Mets676: any one here
[LOGIN] Stevenc
[LOGIN] jklewis
[LOGIN] Gregg
jklewis: Testing color option.
Gregg: test
Gregg: Good morning JKL. Still comin' to FanatiCon? Is that alright to talk about in here?
jklewis: Yes, sorry, I was trying to find some food
jklewis: I'm still coming, but I have yet to find a place to stay,
jklewis: back soon, getting some food in me.
[LOGIN] Gregg
jklewis: Hey Gregg.
jklewis: I'm waiting for my rice to finish cooking.
Gregg: Howdy JK. The site has a new forum with info about some new rooms blocked at Cedar Inn. They will be held until Feb. 2.
jklewis: Awsome. I'll swing by and look at it. Thanks!
jklewis: What's the URL?
Gregg: FanatiCon website - http://www.win.bright.net/~mimi/fanaticon/
jklewis: I just registered.
jklewis: I never realized that those words at the top were buttons... I never even read them before. Maybe you should make them more "button" like.
jklewis: Have you been playing lately? I just played Thrusday and beat a cross division rival.
Gregg: Andy Welton is the man behind the new forum. It looks great, is faster, and has more options than the old one. Andy Welton should be appearing today here, too.
jklewis: Kudos to Andy Welton, the forum looks great. I also didn't need to register for it because I'm on BBCentral. :-)
Gregg: Good idea about the "Buttons". I've been playing plenty of 4th edition when I can. Trying out the Snotlings so I can use them at the Con.
jklewis: Snotlings! BTW, do I need to give you my team for the tourney now? Or can I just present it when I arrive?
Gregg: JK - We would like to see it on the forum with a suitable taunt. The teams taken so far are Norse, Snotling, Chaos Korne, Wood Elf, Undead, and probably Goblin. I have someone mulling over the possibility of Minotaur. I have not received the official c
jklewis: Is it required that the team be different from the other teams present?
Gregg: JK - uh-oh. Do messages get cut if they are too long? Someone has Amazons too.
jklewis: I think there is a message limit to prevent spamming.
Gregg: No. We allow multiple teams. Most that are coming are just trying to get as many different teams as possible. With the number coming, that will deinitely happen anyway.
jklewis: I'm torn between Orcs, Dwarves, and Halflings.
Gregg: JK - So far we have BB folks from Wisconsin, Illinois, Minnesota, and Ohio. I'm not sure if we have confirmation from Nevada and Texas. I forgot that 2 guys from Minnesota are playing Dwarves and Skaven. No one has the Halflings yet. I'm the only guy
jklewis: Playing Halflings would mean an early end to my advances, but would be fun non-the-less.
Gregg: JK - I guess I'm too long-winded. You cna play whoever you like. The Orcs are not taken yet. I think someone from Duluth is eyeing them. I'm very pleased we have the variety we have so far.
Gregg: I thought that a larger variety may attract more coaches who do not want to play in an all Orc or Human affair. Looks like we don't have to worry about that.
jklewis: Gregg- Yep, it's pretty cool. What's the total number of players so far?
Gregg: Before the forum crash it was 12. We have more that have not officially registered, but have come in the past. I expect most of them too.
[LOGIN] Milo
Milo: Hullo, all.
Gregg: Morning Milo. Thanks for the use if your Chat Room once again.
jklewis: milo- Hi Milo!
Milo: You're welcome. Actually, if anyone ever has a use for it, they should feel free to just go ahead and let me know.
Milo: I'm always happy to see it in use.
jklewis: Who is the invisible member? Is that just a recorder bot or something?
Milo: I'm at my second job today (gaming store, natch), so I may have to come and go.
jklewis: Okay.
jklewis: I'll try to keep things running smoothly.
[LOGIN] Scorch
Gregg: Sounds like a good second job! I used to work at a hobby store just to afford some of my hobbies...
Scorch: good its working
Milo: Most of my salary gets turned into store credit -- but I do get a 20% discount.
jklewis: scorch - Welcome.
jklewis: Milo- That's like a 20% instant raise!
Milo: That means I can buy BBMag at a discount... oh, wait.
Scorch: thank u nice to be here again :)
Gregg: Should we kick about some topics that need possible discussing when Jervis does get here? Just to get some things lined up for order of discussion? Or is a free-for-all better?
Milo: I think the basic discussion will be centered on OSPA and BBMag, myself.
Scorch: ospa ?
jklewis: gregg- IT's starting as a free for all, but who knows.
Milo: One-Skill-Per-Action.
jklewis: One Skill Per Action.
Scorch: ah ha
Milo: Have we convinced you yet, John?
jklewis: That OSPA is bad?
Milo: That it isn't an improvement.
jklewis: No, there's still the issue of limiting teams that has not been fully explored.
Milo: But you're no longer quite as gung-ho about it?
jklewis: I am convinced, however, that it doesn't fix skill combinations.
Gregg: All - we are one of the few leagues who have stuck to the rules concerning rookie big guys. We also have several players that use big guy teams form time to time. Anyone else her ever play 'em?
Scorch: ospa causes some problems but does help with some balance problems
jklewis: That was the part I was excited about (fixing skill combinations).
Scorch: makes jump up next to useless
Milo: Last time I played with rookie big guy teams with negative skills, a Minotaur team self-destructed against a Halfling team.
Milo: Admittedly, that was 5 years ago or so.
Milo: But they really haven't changed that much.
jklewis: I haven't had Big Guy Teams yet, but I expect at least one in the new league, the OBL.
Scorch: we have big guy teams , i ran a minataur team
Milo: I like the idea of big guy teams, but not the implementation.
Gregg: They have never won a season, but were still fun. Cutting them down to 8 players is not working well here. Even with 11 they never won, but were much more enjoyable.
Scorch: once a bunch of them had block my team did alrite
Milo: Could be worse, Gregg -- under 2nd Ed rules, they took up two player slots -- which meant only five on the field at once.
jklewis: I could see playing Dwarves as the Big Tem nightmare.
Scorch: yes 11 was hard enuf just to make it competitive for my minataurs
jklewis: I heard that one guy got Big Hand on his Minotaur and his team seems to be working well now.
Milo: That would certainly help.
jklewis: They were affraid of his team after that. That he could score and play the smash game.
Scorch: that would have been nice for my team
Gregg: It seemed like cutting Big Guys to starting with 8 players fixed the creating a team with 1 mil gps problem. No extra rules there then.
Scorch: i was using my doubles for getting of wild animal
jklewis: I guess in the end that Big Guy teams are supposed to be a sideline interest. The history of the game never shows them winning much.
Gregg: I agree. It would be nice to make the team somewhat playable. I know that Jervis is not interested in making them all equal, but when Snotlings beat Big Guys every time....
Milo: Anyways, the store only has one phone line for computer use, so if anyone wants to buy something with a credit card, I'll have to drop off temporarily.
jklewis: Scorch- This guy swears by Big Hand, saying it make his team effective. I can see where picking up the ball would be the hardest part of playing Mino's.
jklewis: Milo - Roger that.
Scorch: yes it was jk , but at the time i could not get mutations
jklewis: Scorch - Ah.
[LOGIN] Death
Scorch: tho for some reason i had a 60% pick up ball rate
Scorch: too bad i was knocking myself over all the time
[LOGIN] Jervis
Scorch: hi death :)
jklewis: Hmmm..
Milo: Hi, Jervis.
Scorch: hi Jervis :)
Milo: ad you could make it.
Milo: Er, Glad.
jklewis: Hello Jervis.
Milo: Is Andy going to be joining us today?
[LOGIN] Tamdrik
Jervis: Hello all
Death: hi Scorch
Scorch: hi tamdrik :)
Tamdrik: Hi all
Death: Greetings Jervis
Jervis: Andy was hoping to join us too. I'm in the office, he's at home, so I won't know for sure until he turns up.
jklewis: Jervis, do you remember how to change your text colour? Click on options.
jklewis: I would suggest Red for you.
Milo: We'll save some of the big questions for later, when the chat officially starts.
Tamdrik: I see nobody had enough extra free time on their hands to upgrade the chat room to Java. : )
Milo: But as an aside, can you tell us what will be included in BBMag2?
Milo: Tamdrik -- partly that, and partly I haven't found a java chatroom (for free) that I like better.
Jervis: Hold on, I'll change to red!
Death: Is there any way to config the number of lines shown? Currently I only see 13, and I can't seem to scroll back.
Scorch: java can be a pain
Milo: Death, there isn't. but you can set it to put new messages at the top instead of the bottom under "options", and that might help.
jklewis: Scorch - Java *is* a pain.
Jervis: Just testing. Will this be OK?
Milo: That looks great, Jervis.
jklewis: Perfect.
Scorch: looks good jervis
Tamdrik: Scorch: I suppose so, but having been immersed in it while doing my thesis work, I'm now more used to Java than C++. :p
Milo: Tamdrik -- do you want to write a java chatroom for us?
Scorch: my normal chat room is java , many problems if u dont have a nice server
Tamdrik: Milo: Sorry, I'm still immersed in that aforementioned thesis work. ; )
Scorch: .
[LOGIN] Razorwing
Jervis: Just to start the ball rolling, did you see the note I sent John about the reasons for pulling BBmag into the Journal?
jklewis: Scorch - that color is unreadable.
Scorch: hi razorwing :)
Death: perhaps irc could be an option?
Razorwing: Hey, Scorch. :)
Scorch: good idea death
Scorch: mirc is a nice system
Scorch: bbmag is going back into the journal ?
Gregg: Jervis - I'll miss the B Mag. Might there be BB compilations after so many Journals?
Milo: Jervis -- we did. We just don't like them.
Razorwing: Why weren't more writers alloted to the BBMag project?
Milo: Why are you discontinuing the most popular magazine Fanatic has? If you're in the business to make money, that just doesn't make sense.
Milo: Unless you're just doing it to boost sales of Citadel Journal.
Jervis: Gregg: Yes, I'd like to do a BB Annual each year, pulling the stuff we do in the Journal into a single place.
jklewis: There are several people from the list who were unhappy to hear about the move for the BBMag.
Death: Jervis, I did. IMHO, I would prefer the BBMag to come out on it's own on a 4-6 month basis. I feel it's better if the rules don't change every 2 months.
Scorch: i like deaths idea , i dont need bbmag every 2 months
Scorch: i just need bloodbowl every 2 months :)
Razorwing: In my opinion, BBmag1 was nothing but a cheap way to increase BB sales for a brief period of time. I can't imagine beginning several publishing projects without the necessary number of writers in place before hand.
Tamdrik: I would prefer the semiannual BBMag... I would actually buy that, as opposed to a bimonthly CJ.
[LOGIN] Stevenc
Jervis: Milo: Journal sales are fine, but my resources are limited. Basically, I think that BB can survive fine without a magazine, while the other games I am supporting need the help.
Scorch: hi steven :)
Milo: JErvis -- wouldn't strong sales from BBMag bring in the capital needed to increase your resources?
jklewis: Reminds me of the difference between Soviet and NATO military practices. The Sovs sent more troops where there were winning, NATO where they were losing.
Razorwing: If BB can survive without such a publication, then why even start it to begin with?
Jervis: Razorwing: You forget that at the time that BBMag came out, BB was not in print, so we couldn't boost the sales! We've only just got the game back in print, and will have DZ next month, so you're argument doesn't really hold up.
Razorwing: To simply publish a bunch of ostensibly untested rules, then disappear as the confusion begins?
Scorch: yes i want to talk bout the dz printing
Stevenc: I would have to say that I also would prefer a more spread out distribution of 2 a year
Razorwing: Boost sales ... get back in print .... from a sales standpoint, by argument is very valid: it's a way to renew interest, is it not?
Jervis: Razorwing: Im not disappearing : )
Gregg: I am happy to see the game supported. As long as there are compilations, officialized updates like in other Fanatic products. I lke how each magazine publishes a list of what is considered the latest rules with a chance for us gamers to get involved in
Razorwing: Right, you'll be there to supply us with more sales promotions, I'm sure.
jklewis: Razorwing: Your arguement would only produce a flash of money, and one that would disappear quickly. What Fanatic needs is a longterm growth strategy.
Jervis: Milo/Razorwing: This is not about sales per se, Fanatic is set up to find a way to support all of the 'specilist games' we bring out. We are still figuring out how to do this. When I joined the team there was a plan in place that had BB Mag in it, so I brought it out. With hindsight I should have said 'hey guys, aren't we biting off too much here'.
Milo: Razorwing -- I understand your frustrations, but let's try to keep this from getting too negative.
Gregg: I like how Necromunda allows us to playtest some of the rules that can become official by voicing our opinions. That's why things like this chat may lead to some rather interesting positives for the future of Blood Bowl.
Stevenc: I assume the need to cut BBmag was that you believe that after the quick release that the game is basically set and the need for it will be serioiusly deminished, right?
Milo: It seems like strong sales would lead to GW increasing the team, and hence, you would have more resources to devote to it. I'm just having a hard time understanding why you would cut a popular product.
[LOGIN] TomAnders
Scorch: hi tom :)

jklewis: Milo: Do you think the high buy rate for BBMag 1 was due to the introduction of the new rule? I don't know about the other games, but I bet that contributed to the high sales of the BB mag.
[LOGIN] zim
Scorch: hi zim :)
[LOGIN] Jim
[LOGIN] msheaf1
zim: hello all
Milo: John -- Probably. But I'd also argue that there's a more reliable customer base for BB than, say, Warhammer Quest or Epic 40k.
Jervis: Stevenc & Milo: I'm willing to put BB material in the Journal because I think that the game will survive very well with this level of support, while the other games I am looking after need more help in the form of their own magazines.
Jim: Hello everyone!
Milo: After all, neither of them have been reprinted -- essentially unchanged -- and still shown strong sales.
Scorch: hi jim :)
Scorch: hi msheaf :)
Milo: Jervis -- this is a side issue, but are there any plans to reprint Warhammer quest? (some of us would like it for Dungeonbowl games)
Scorch: Quest rocks :)
Jim: Hi scorch.
TomAnders: Jervis, the one reoccurring theme from the mail list yesterday. Is that "virtually" all the players would rather see a bi-annual publication for BB Mag than to have to subscribe to CJ which is mostly 40k and Warhammer
jklewis: Milo: It appears that Jervis is saying when a game gets "healthy" it no longer needs it own magazine to survive. Having your own magazine is akin to lifesupport, I guess.
Milo: John -- I understand that, but I think that will mean Fanatic is always a tiny sideshow for GW.
Gregg: True fans like us can keep up with smaller chinks of Blood Bowl Anyone hear about the upcoming Town Cryer compilation? If something like that came out for BB (as the annual he mentioned) would that not only help Blood Bowl?
jklewis: Tom: Jervis is planning to make yearly compilations, which I think everyone on the list agreed would be fine.
Stevenc: I do agree that the game is basically self supporting. Though I would like to see the occasional compendium of the CJ articles on a 1-2 per year basis for those of us that don't need CJ on a regular basis.
Jervis: Milo: Popular as BBmag is, its sales are not the criteria by which the success of Fanatic will be judged.
Milo: Jervis: Popular as BBMag was, you mean.
TomAnders: Sorry, you all started early on me. Okay, I can live with continued Compendiums.
jklewis: Jervis: That brings up a good point, what will the success of Fanatic be judged on?
Gregg: Continued support in Journal (where BB was for a few years) and new compilations or annuals? Sounds good to me!!
TomAnders: But does this mean that the idea for materials for building dugout, stadium, new teams and etc. etc is on hold or will that still be developed???
[LOGIN] AndyHall
Scorch: hi andy :)
jklewis: ANDY! Hi!
Jim: Hi Andy.
Jervis: jklewis: We'll be judged on our ability to make the all of the specialist games an increasingly valuable part of what GW produces.
AndyHall: Hello all
Razorwing: And what about new BB miniatures? Have plans for them been scrapped as well?
Scorch: yes jervis and andy , any chance forge world will help with bb specialty products ?
[LOGIN] TomAnders
jklewis: Jervis: That's a bit vague. Do you mean revenue or new players... what's the value you are talking about?
Jervis: TomAnders: No, I've still got plans for all kinds of stuff for BB.
Jervis: Hi Andy!
[LOGIN] Bevan
Death: Personally, I would love to see new minis produced. Unforutnately, I have no talent for conversions. So I would be happy to see new BB Vampires and Big Guys minis.
Scorch: hi bevan :)
Jervis: jklewis: Both, they are linked really.
Scorch: death for big guys all u have to do is cut out the weapons really
AndyHall: Hi Jervis,
Jim: Talking about Big Uy minis, when is that Treeman being released?
jklewis: Jervis: Do you think that will be best accomplished through increasing new players or by promoting new add ones for existing one?
jklewis: sorry, add ones = add ons
Jervis: Death: Mark Bedford has just finished a new Lizardman team, which is looks very nice. I think I may commission a Khemri team or a Bretonnian team next.
AndyHall: The Treeman is currebtly out in the UK It should be in the States anytime soon
Death: Scorch: I've tried that, but they don't quite look like proper blood bowl players (helmets, shoulder pads, etc) when I'm done. Plus many have weapons molded into their bodies (swords on the belts and such)
jklewis: AndyHall: How's it going Andy? Are your leagues coming near a close? I hear the US studio is about to have it's super bowl.
Milo: Jervis -- I'd suggest Brettonian. The Khemri team can be more easily converted from current minis.
Scorch: shoulder pads are easy to take care of but i see your point for body weapons
Gregg: Khemri and Brettonian!! Woo-hoo! Sounds like the game is being supported to me....
TomAnders: Death: Converting Vampires is easy (I have an entire team). Mix Luthors with Blood Dragon 1, Von Carstein Vampire, Vlad Von Carstein. The Blood Dragon 1 looks very BBish and all 3 are incredibly easy conversions.
Scorch: personally i just live with them on my lizarmen
Death: Milo: any suggestions on decent looking tomb guard minis?
Scorch: lizardmen that is
AndyHall: Hi JKS, I'm not currently in a league but will be in next seasons at GW HQ
Jervis: jklewis: If we succeed it will be both new players and add-ons.
Gregg: Good suggestion Milo about the Bretonnians. But I am having a hard time too with Tomn Guardians..
jklewis: I just started a Dwarven team by converting the Long Drong WarDogs... I call the team the Scurvy Dogs... pirate theme.
Stevenc: So, should we shift the conversation to OSPA?
Scorch: arrrggghhh not more dwarves (jk)
Death: I guess my problem is I see the quality of other peoples conversions and get frusrtated by the lack of quality in mine.
[LOGIN] Pinkhorror
TomAnders: Milo: what are using for Tomb Guardian (we were looking at converting some Wraiths)
Jervis: All: One thing I am keen on doing for BB is encouraging the formation of leagues and the running of tournament and BB events. My current thinking is to set up something along the lines of the RT Tournament system run by GW US, but for BB. To my mind this will do more to promote Blood Bowl and get both old a new coaches playing than anything else we can do.
Razorwing: Jervis: does fanatic contract artists outside of their immediate cadre of talented employees? I have several scratch-sculptured BB minis that Fanatic might want to use.
Gregg: Since Fanatic is making Big Guy pieces, I have a question about Big Guy teams. Only 8 on the field? With 11 they always lost. Anyone else agree that 8 is a bit too harsh?
TomAnders: Gregg: Big Guy teams are supposed to lose
Jervis: Razorwing: We use both in-house and out-of-house designers. Email me seprately at jervisj@games-workshop.co.uk and we'll talk.
Scorch: i do gregg , i had enuf problems with 11 on an experianced team
AndyHall: Gregg: thats what happens when you play Big Guys
Gregg: I find it interesting that Snotlings and Halflings are whoopin' the Big 'Uns..
jklewis: Gregg: Is that because they just can't seem to get hold of the little guys?
Death: Gregg: I always felt Snotlings and Big Guy teams were not supposed to be balanced. They were supposed to lose most of the time.
Scorch: only when the opponents messed up and could not count players on field rtie for me gregg
msheaf1: Are the rest of you as tired of these teams that are supposed to lose as I am? It makes great fluff but a lousy game in my oponion.
Jervis: What is it about Halfling teamns?!? No matter what I try and do to crock them they still manage to keep on winning!
Death: Gregg: but how many snotlings and halflings are alive at the end?
Gregg: I understand that they are supposed to lose, but in the words of Jeremy Vetock, "When the Halflings win your opponent will sure be embarassed!" I'd be happy if they won 1 game out of 20.
Scorch: u got that rite jervis
jklewis: Crock... I hope that wasn't a Pun Jervis. But seriously, they win because only really really good coaches will play halflings.
Scorch: Dark Halfling Reapers were a pain
Jim: My Halfling team managed to 10-7 last season and led the league in Casualties for AND against. I love Halflings!
Jervis: msheaf1: The trick is to make it so it is very hard for them to win; it makes some teams light relief from the serious 'proper' teams you can field if have a 50/50 chance of winning is important to you.
jklewis: When I played them I made it to the finals.
Jim: Go Dark Halfling Reapers!
Scorch: Where as my minataur team was nothing more than a joke
Scorch: :P at jim
jklewis: Let's talk about OSPA now Jervis....
Scorch: yes on to ospa !
TomAnders: OSPA ;-<
jklewis: What does OSPA do to help the game play better?
Death: Jim were most of the casualties from blocks or fouls?
Scorch: jump up is almost useless with ospa
Gregg: I played the Big uys for fun. Not to win. Some of the coahes felt that it was simply too drastic a change. We like the fact that they lost with 11 players on the field. It was just a better fight and time better spent.
Scorch: jim is very lucky death
Jervis: My good friend and most irritating gaming opponent Dave Moore ran the Moot Mighties. Playing against him was a nightmare! Naming their coach Slowchap Eatmoore was my way of getting revenge...
Jim: Death, Mostly from blocks, although I had 2 Treemen on the team.
Scorch: he rolls 6's like others roll 3's
Death: scorch: heh
AndyHall: Enough with the Halflings!
Jim: I do admit I have some great luck!
Scorch: if u ever play jim at a convention , Beware the Monopoly dice !
Jervis: OK, onto OSPA then (but swopping annecdotes is more fun ; ))
Jim: Oops! On to OSPA! Sorry Andy!
AndyHall: ;-)
TomAnders: Gregg: if your league really feels that 11 is not bad then go with it. The 8 man on the pitch for Big Guy teams makes it so that you do not need special rules about extra cash for big guy teams becasue they can not afford to buy 11 players.
Scorch: what bout what i said regarding jump up jervis and andy ?
Stevenc: Jervis: Have you gotten any feedback from either the US or UK studio leagues on OSPA?
jklewis: We'll come back to annecdotes later!
Scorch: optional would be better tom , only need 8 players but can have 11
Jim: Big Guy teams can be a pain, but withthe neg.skills, they rarely win.
Jervis: Stevenc: Yes I have - it has worked fine in terms of game balance, and has not 'taken the blood out of Blood Bowl'. Once coaches get used to it, they seem happy with it.
AndyHall: I've been talking to the US studio and they like it
jklewis: Andy: What do they like about it?
TomAnders: Last time, I ordered from UK mail order the phone operator said he didn't like the OSPA. :-)
jklewis: There's been a lot of negative press regarding OSPA, and I want to find out why people are liking it and what the benefits to the game are.

[LOGIN] CeleTheReferee
Scorch: hi cele :)
Tamdrik: Just to throw my opinion out on OSPA (without having had the time or opponents to test it), it seems to create more complication than it fixes. I don't know about balancing.
TomAnders: Almost the entire maillist has now turned Anti-OSPA
Stevenc: Has OSPA slowed down the offense? or just been casuing more TO and chaotic fun?
Razorwing: The testing studios have never mentioned the uselessness of certain skills under 4th ed.?
CeleTheReferee: Hello. Here comes the Ref :-)
AndyHall: I can't comment for all the guys, but the chap I've been talking to says it streamlines the game and weakens power teams
Scorch: u mean like jump up razorwing ?
Jervis: To be honest, OSPA has very little noticble effect on the game; it sorts some problems and has created a few more, though most of these are fixed in BBmag 2. I like it because it keeps top end teams from pulling too far away from starting teams, by limiting killer combos. However, the important thing to bear in mind with OSPA is that it is a rules 'tweak' not a major change to the game.
Razorwing: That might be considered one of them, Scorch.
Razorwing: Combos aren't a major part of the game.
Razorwing: ?
Bevan: OSPA has very little effect on rules bloat (because you need traits) so how does it help?
Jim: I'd rather see clarifications to the 3rd ed. skills combos than to make a OSPA system.
AndyHall: Not anymore ;-)
Scorch: no but jump up is only useful in a combination
TomAnders: The Appearance Fee table is handicap enough if used, why the need to also have OSPA.
TomAnders: OSPA creates as many rules and exceptions as it clean up (I believe this will still be true after BBMag 2). Does BB need to handicap systems?
Jim: Yeah, Appearance fees AND OSPA is a little too harsh IMO.
Jervis: Jim: I disagree; the questions about skill combos point to an underlying problem with skill combo's themselves. Plastering over the cracks was, in my opinion, the right way to fix things.
Bevan: Jervis, most combinations are only limited some of the time. Did you deliberately destroy Leap+Strip Ball?
Razorwing: In my opinion, OSPA is like using a crowbar for brain surgery; I think a more elegant system should have been implemented, not an incomplete over-haul of the rules system.
AndyHall: App fee's have been delt with in BBmag2 in a number of ways...
Jervis: That should say _wasn't_ the right way tp fix things!
Scorch: never seen leap+ strip ball
Scorch: sounds evil tho :)
AndyHall: oh sorry its black on my screen
Jim: Jervis, my local members liked the skill combos and thought that Blod Bowl was better with them. It seems to take away part of the game.
Bevan: Scorch. Heven't you seen any Wood Elves?
Razorwing: Bevan: apparently, elves are not supposed to be able to stop an offensive drive any more.
Scorch: yes but they just ran forever , still beat me :(
TomAnders: The feeling of the list is that the combos ARE the flavor of Bloodbowl without them the game while faster loses much of it "life".
CeleTheReferee: this year, I'll try to do a 23 teams solo-league. I expect more than 180 solo-games in a year
Jervis: Razorwing: By elegant do you mean more complicated? Given two ways to fix a problem I like the simpler, all other things being even.
Jim: Oops. My last post meant to say that OSPA took away form the game.
jklewis: Before the commentary gets too far along, I have to say that the games I've played with OSPA, it's only affected one or two rolls. Are there any games people can point to where OSPA had a very negative effect?
Scorch: multiple block is also downgraded substantialy by ospa
Razorwing: JKL: play an Elf team at TR 180 or higher.
Bevan: The elves seem to lack the flair and brilliance they used to have. The games isn't quite the same now.
jklewis: Razorwing, have you?
Milo: Jervis -- what skill combos does it avoid that couldn't be fixed by some simple description revisions?
[damn, my chat works very bad]
Razorwing: Elves rely on combos when playing defense against an advancing opponent.
Scorch: the game with ospa is more stat based than skill based
Bevan: Multi Block is OK because you still have Frenzy and Dauntless
jklewis: Razorwing: but have you actually played it?
Milo: It seems unnecessary to introduce new rules just to resolve some simply problems.
Razorwing: Yes, JKL. 19 games now, in fact.
Jim: Well, my friend's High Elf passer wnet down a little. Their Leaping players were limited too.
Stevenc: Neg effect of OSPA: Witch Elves with JumpUp
[LOGIN] msheaf1
jklewis: Razorwing: And what is the effect? Elves play differently?
Scorch: wb msheaf
Gregg: Certainly not with any of our beginning teams. For a implementation that is to stop the power teams, I have noticed an effect on the Elves being unable to get the ball. Especially from the new Chaos team...
TomAnders: Sorry, but since you ask JKL, my Vampire team normally uses several skills per a player per a turn. Hypo Gaze+Dodge or Block is very common. And don't get into my Lord, who frequently has to use Break Tackle, HGaze, and Dodge on the same turn.
Razorwing: Yes. It's much more difficult to stop an advancing drive. Unless your opponent mishandles the ball.
Jim: Milo, I agree with that.
Bevan: Tom Anders. I don't mind if vampires are restricted a bit
Scorch: out for a bite is very major bevan
Tamdrik: As far as anecdotal evidence, in the past (in 3e), I've had to use Leap+Dodge+Block+Pro....
Jervis: Milo: Don't you think its better to address an underlying problem than apply patches?
Scorch: so is the treeman one
Razorwing: Elves can still score fast, because of innate AG. But at defense, it's frustrating.
Scorch: jervis i would call appearrence fees a patch
Milo: JErvis -- some of us don't think there is an underlying problem.
TomAnders: Bevan: that's a separate discussion, OFAB is major and we do play with the Appearance fees in my league which quickly effect Vampires at double SPPs progression.
Razorwing: Me too, Scorch.
Scorch: jim tell jervis how appearence fees would have affected your last game
TomAnders: Agreed with Milo, I didn't see the underlying problem, and the appearance fees are a good patch on handicapping.
Jim: Jervis. Many of the local coaches liked Blood Bowl the way it was and many thought that it shouldn't be changed that much.
jklewis: Razorwing: So on defense you've noticed it's much harder for elves to force the ball free?
Death: From my perspective, OSPA causes many old strategies to be thrown away. For me, it means coming up with new winning strategies (not really a bad thing).
Razorwing: Hey, Tom, nice work on the Spirit team article, by the way.
Jervis: All: reading this debate, I wonder if we are heading into 'how many angels can dace on the head of a pin territory'. To sum up, OSPA has an effect on the way that BB plays, and slightly changes game balance for some teams. Is there concensus on this?
Jim: Oh yeah, thanks Scorch. I faced a 300 TR high Elf team with my 300 TR Dwarf team, and he could only run 6 players, and I could only field 11.
Stevenc: I would agree with Milo. Though I see the idea of OSPA to keep the big teams down, but think it could have been implemented better.
Scorch: yes but not on whether u have gone too far jervis
TomAnders: Yes, it has a large impact on game balance for some teams and not so much for others.
Razorwing: Yes, JKL. And while serious injuries/deaths are reduced due to the modified injury table/mighty blow restrictions, strength-based teams still manage to cause a lot of KO's, attenuating elves even more on defense.
jklewis: Jervis: I think that's a good summary.
Bevan: Jervis, I find the handoff rule has more effect on elves than OSPA. Is this also a deliberate restriction on elves
Razorwing: I agree, Tom. The coach of our human team, for instance, doesn't mind OSPA all that much at all.
AndyHall: You have to admit it does give players of younger teams a chance against teams that have players that need to roll double 1 to cause a turnover
Razorwing: Sure, Andy, but couldn't a less radical solution have been developed to address such handicapping 'problems'?
Jim: Talking about injuries Razorwing. I still killed 3 Rats in one game and killed 1 Elf and injured 3 others in another game. Not much difference.
Scorch: we dont deny there have been balance problems andy and jervis
Stevenc: I guess perhaps making OSPA like the app fees might be a good idea.
TomAnders: Razorwing: Thanks for the note on the Spirit article. JKL helped me clean up a few things that our playtesting had brought out. I'll be sending it in to Fanatic in a week or two.
jklewis: Okay, unless Jervis has something more to add about OSPA, I think we've air our issues with it. Let's move on to Apperance Fee's.
AndyHall: Is it radical though? As JKS says it has had little effect in the games he's played
Scorch: but ospa and appearence fees togehter , way too much
msheaf1: also if the game is meant to be played with teams of highly different ratings why does the handicap chart only go to 101+?
zim: Jervis, do you mind revisiting product questions?
Jervis: One thing guys. BB is not a 'fixed' system. I do listin to what people say, and if an argument has force I change my mind. From experience, though, I know that gamers are innately conservative, and that you need to wait quite a few months to find out what effect a rules change really has on a game.
Razorwing: Jim, I too haven't noticed that much with regard to injuries; some deaths have been avoided due to the modified injury table, but that's about it.
Stevenc: leagues with young teams only 1 SPA, young and old 2 SPA, just old 3 SPA, etc...
Bevan: Stevenc, If we make OSPA optional it causes heaps more rules bloat again as you allow for actions with and without OSPA
Scorch: true jervis
AndyHall: What do you want to know Zim?
Scorch: we already used that system razorwing
[LOGIN] Ioda
zim: One: will plastic human and orc sprues be available separately again?
Scorch: we like the new injury rules by the way
Scorch: i loda :)
Jim: Razorwing, we've always used the modified injury table, and our league can still be quite bloody at times.
Scorch: hi even
Razorwing: Is it radical? I think we should base the answer of this question upon more than one person's opinion. 7 out of 9 people in my local league don't care for it.
TomAnders: Okay, our league's take: OSPA was eliminated. The Appearance fee table is used as is but only on the higher TR team if the difference in TR is 101+
Death: Side queston to Jervis/Andy: In several places in BBMag1 you refer to "a move or a blitz action". Does this statement include Pass, Handoff, and Foul actions? If not, does this mean you can't Diving Tackle a player during the movement portion of a pass action?
AndyHall: Hmm... Are they not now?
Scorch: that is our idea too tom
Jervis: Moving to appearance fees, I think that the modification in BBMag 2 which allows a league commissionar to set the level of appearance fees at 0, half or full, pretty much deals with any objections.
TomAnders: This allows for the big teams to duke it out with full player and skill rosters, but handicaps the big TR difference games.
jklewis: Death: Yes it includes the other actions.
msheaf1: my entire league hates the thought of OSPA, bad enough so that if we used it we could just close down the league
Gregg: Just for kicks we ran a small tourney with new teams versus teams 100-150 points higher. The new teams won. Appearance fees really balanced the playing field. I liked it, but found it kind of funny.
zim: Andy: to my knowledge, not from GWUS... maybe I'm wrong
Razorwing: Is there anything 'new' in BBMag2, or will it be mainly revisions of BBMag1?
Jim: Yeah I think me and Tom and Scorch all agree that there should be Appearance Fees against smaller teams, but why when you're facing another big team?
Scorch: i would love to get bbmag 1 rite now
AndyHall: Well I think they maybe in stock in GWUK but Ill look into it on Monday and see if we can get any over to the US.
Bevan: Appearance fees are OK because you can vary them as much as you like (SPPS cut in point,a ctual amount etc). OSPA is harder to tweak, and we don't need both.
[LOGIN] jaylazer
Jervis: Razorwing: We just got copies of BBmag 2 back from the printers. Pages 2-8 update the 4th edition rules artilce, all the rest is 'new stuff'.
Jim: It's coming early this coming week at our local store, Scorch.
jklewis: Jim: The net effect is pretty much the same right? When you play the lower TR team, you save your money, when you play the high TR team you spend it on app fees.
Death: Our league as split Apperance Fees into Appearnce/Hold Out fees. Allies still pay apperance fees as normal, but non-allied players pay a hold-out fee once per tournament.
Scorch: hi jay :)
Stevenc: Yes the change to none/half/full fees should fix most peoples problems
AndyHall: Razorwing, loads of new stuff
Ioda: It's been mentioned several times that the "official" rules will be available in PDF format...will that continue when the BB issues are printed in CJ? I don't play any other GW games and I don't really want CJ.
Scorch: i know but these guys are already talking bout bb 2
msheaf1: jklewis: right up to the point that lower rated team with its six cards bankrupts you
zim: Andy: Great! Also, are alternative metal human and orc teams still in the pipeline?
Death: that should be charge, not pay on the fees
[alternative to Marauders and Orcland Raiders]
jklewis: msheaf1: What are the odds? :-)
Gregg: You know I really liked appearance fees preventing my super team from winning. But should they only be used when one team is, for example, more than 100 points higher in TR than their opponent?
Jim: jklewis, I don't see why 2 big teams have to be cut down when they can't pay the fees. When they face each other, it hurts both teams
AndyHall: They are in the pipeline, but no fixed plans or dates as yet.
Death: Orcs in the new WFB look would be great!
Jervis: Ioda: We plan to keep 'archiving' important stuff onto the BB web site, once a magazine is out of print. We'll be getting a 'gold' edition of the 4th edition rules onto the BB web site soon.
jklewis: Jervis: What about the idea of the PDF with the 4th Edition rules compiled in it... are we going to see something like that on the website?
Scorch: u got that rite death :)
Jim: Also, JK, I thought Appearance fees were supposed to help the smaller teams, why punish 2 big teams that wnat to play each other?
jklewis: Jim: They should be spending them money they were saving for this game. I guess it's just team management.
AndyHall: Jim, see the new article on Super-leagues in BBmag 2 (when available).
TomAnders: JKL. Not the same effect. By only apply Appearance Fees to the Higher TR team, the lower team gets to keep it stars that would have normal cost them AppFees. So the board is much more balanced. The High TR team has to pay for its talent, the low does not.
msheaf1: jklewis: with all the money taking card, pretty good, it seems that way from experience for sure
Death: Jervis: Any chance the Official Dungeon Bowl rules being placed on the website?
jklewis: Tom: Interesting idea.
jklewis: msheaf1: You've had problem with big teams losing games because another team bankrupted them and they couldn't field their stars. This have been common for you?
Jervis: jklweis: I'd love to do a new edition of the rules, but we just don't have the production time to do it yet.
Razorwing: What about Blocking dice? Are they available again for purchase separately?
AndyHall: JKL, the 4th Edd rules will be going up on the Website, it's sitting on my desktop on my work computer at the Moment.
jklewis: Razorwing: I just bought some from GWUS.
Stevenc: Jervis: Any possiblity on rereleasing/putting up in pdf the "old" dungeon bowl tiles?
TomAnders: This modification of Jervis' AppFees is really working out well for our league. Just wish I could have let Fanatic know about it in time to add it as a 4th choice for BB Mag 2
Razorwing: Ahh, very good, ... thanks, JKL.
msheaf1: we don't waste our time with fourth edition; but from playing the game I can see where the problem would easily accour
jklewis: Andy! If I could fly to the UK and input that file myslef I would. :-)
AndyHall: Its not ready yet... I've got Warmag 4 then Necromag3 to do first ;-)
Death: jkl: that's similar to professional sports when they get too many high priced players they pay for it later on
jklewis: msheaf1: I see. Well, I appreaciate you trying to help us who waste out time playing it.
Scorch: true death but i had many players wanting more or having to cut them after one season with appearence fees
Jervis: All: After the chat has finished, why not discuss what stuff you'd like to see archived on you mailing lists, and then send us a list of what you'd like to see.
Razorwing: Jervis and Andy: have you considered incorporating any of the ideas created by members of the BBList-Serv? Rules for new teams, card decks, new skills, et. al. are always cropping up.
TomAnders: Andy/Jervis: I pretty much finished two articles for submission for BBMag or CJ. Can they be submitted via e-mail (zipped Microsoft Word + JPEGS) with an electronic permission form or does all that need to be printed out and mailed in????
jklewis: Jervis: what do you mean? Archived rules wise?
AndyHall: Tom, I've seen your e-mails in the Fanatic inbox, you canb send them via e-mail if you wish.
Stevenc: jkl: I assume he means things like which rules (dungeonbowl) and other items (like the "old" dungeonbowl tiles that I would like)
Jervis: Tom & Razorwing: You can send stuff in electronic format. We're always looking for articles; send the stuff to us and we'll happily consider publishing it.
AndyHall: Ravorwing, how do I sign up for the BBlist, I''ve tried a couple of times and it never seems to work.
jklewis: Jervis + Andy: I promise I'll send along my Hockey Blood Bowl soon.
Jervis: jklewis: Stevenc is correct. A list of peoples top three articles or things to be archived would be very useful for us.
jklewis: Andy: I'll send info along to you.
Razorwing: I believe there is a link you can use to sing up here on Bloodbowl.net.
TomAnders: Andy, sorry for sending 3 e-mail in one day. I just didn't want to have to buy CJ to keep on BB. Last question, is JPEG perferred for pictures??? Should I make them Black & White or is Colour okay?
Razorwing: sign, even
Scorch: jklewis , we were just talking bout that idea last nite
AndyHall: Cheers.
Scorch: bb hockey sounds very humorous
zim: Jervis and Andy: thanks for your time and info
jklewis: Scorch-- www-personal.umcih.edu/~jklewis/bloodice/
zim: bye all
AndyHall: We prefer EPS, but Jpegs are finbe because we can turn them into EPS in Photoshop, same goes for colour of B&W.
Jim: Yeah, I'll have to read those Hockey rules too.
jklewis: sorry, that should be www-personal.umich.edu/~jklewis/bloodice/
Death: As a suggestion to Andy and Jervis; I know you guys have very busy schedules, but maybe a weekly posting to the BBlist with your comments on thoughts on the weeks discussion my diffuse some of the confusion/frustration some of the coaches are experiencing.
TomAnders: Death, that's what JKL is for
jklewis: Death: If you ever need to get something off your chest or want an update about something from Jervis, you can always ask me, or just send it to the fanatics emial.
AndyHall: Death, I would really like to do that, as Jervis as tasked me to @Champion@ BB so as soon as I work how to get on the list I will.
jklewis: Andy: Do you get to use a sword?
Jervis: Death: JKL is out there for us. You can also email us at the Fanatic address, and you can post ot the Warhammer World forum on the GW site, which we've been asked to help moderate.
AndyHall: the @ was ment to be ' lol
Pinkhorror: The @ looks good
AndyHall: I hope so ( A sword of flaming death!)
jklewis: I can just see AndyHall now, riding out on a Battle Ram to @Champion@ BB.
AndyHall: Cheers Pink Horror :-)
Stevenc: Jervis: Did you actually check the balance of many of the new teams or simply reprint the articles?
Death: Is BBMag2 going to address how "Ball and Chain" players stats are modified? For example, can Norse B&C players use the block skill?
Scorch: good question death
AndyHall: Death, Ball and Chain and Deathroller are covered in BBmag2.
jklewis: Jervis: Why did you add the extra RR to the elves and Dwarves... Was that a balancing tweak?
Death: Tangent question, how many people work for fanatic?
jklewis: Death 4.
Scorch: rr ? jklewis
Stevenc: Many poeple feel the Daemon teams are a little over the top.
Scorch: never mind
Jervis: Death: Yes. Stevenc: We rely on feedback and experience. As I've already said, BB is not a fixed system, it grows and evolves over time, based on the feedback I get from coaches and my own experience.
TomAnders: Andy, last submission question, and then you won't have to answer my e-mail. Can a single non-Citadel miniature be in a picture for an article (if all the other figs are Citadel)?
Death: 4? Yikes! No wonder fanatic is overloaded!
Jim: Wow, it's starting to I know Tom has some great team ideas, is there any new teams out there that Fanatic is thinking of making?
Scorch: chaos in general steven with more than 2 big guys
Jervis: Tomanders: Send it in, we'll let you know if there is a problem
TomAnders: StevenC: over the top how ... because of the Greater Daemon. They cost a fortune and now with the change in DAura are killed on any casualty roll.
Jim: Oops! I'm not awake. Oh well. I think you understand most of the last post.
AndyHall: Not really, but send it in and we can close in on the other models
Pinkhorror: they're too hard too kill though, with the no armor mods
Jervis: jklewis: Ye sit was. I've long felt that starting Elf and Dark Elf teams needed to be able to purchase about one more lineman. This was my way of fixing the problem.
TomAnders: AV 7 is too hard to kill with no modifiers?
Pinkhorror: greater daemons
Pinkhorror: have higher, don't they?
jklewis: Jervis: What about the Dwarves? Just a genre thing for them?
Scorch: i dint have a problem with the free rerols
Bevan: The Elf reroll bonus is a nice fix without changig any prices
Jim: Yeah, Daemon teams are rough to deal with, especially since only Trollslayers are allowed to have Dauntless now.
Stevenc: Yes the greater daemons are usually the problem. 1) they now gain skills (normal rate), 2) true they are killed on CAS but you have to get the CAS first.
jklewis: scorch: Me either, I was just curious.
AndyHall: ble.
jklewis: Jim: Everyone can get Dauntless after BBMag2
TomAnders: Jervis, is it just a concidence that all the team whose lineman cost 70k where the only that received the free reroll or was that delibrate.
AndyHall: Dont forget Greater Daemons are Unstable
Death: The Bloodthirster is a real tough nut to crack with a non-modded AV of 10
Jervis: jklweis: Yes, to an extent. However, as they are also expensive, I felt it good to allow them the chance for a bit more depth in case they had a bad 'opening run'.
Bevan: Why aren't greater daemons considered stars as in the originla article?
Jervis: Tomanders: It was deliberate.
Jim: JK: Anyone can get Dauntless? well that fixes the problem. Do you need doubles to get it?
AndyHall: I originally put the Blood Thirster in, thinking no-one would ever be that mad as to take one.
Scorch: dauntless is not a trait anymore ?
Scorch: lol andy u silly coach u
TomAnders: Scorch: BB Mag 2 will allow you to get traits on Doubles
jklewis: Scorch: You can take traits on a doubles roll now.
jklewis: Scorch: So long as you have access to their skill catagory.
Scorch: of course they would , they have an awesome bloodthirster mini and a khorne team
jklewis: Okay, back to the annecdotes!
Gregg: Was the Big Guy 8 player restrcition taken into account now that all players can get dauntless again. Those poor Big Guys!
Death: AndyHall, we have 2 coaches in our league planning on getting one ASAP.
Bevan: Will all the mutations be traits or only some of them?
Razorwing: What is the skill category for the trait Dauntless, then?
Scorch: thats what i wanted in first place with traits thank u jervis and andy
Jim: Andy, we've only had one Chaos team that ever had Daemons. And he took 2 Bloodletters and the Bloodthirster. Everyone refused to play him!
jklewis: Jervis: What was your favorite team to play?
jklewis: Andy: Same question!
TomAnders: Dauntless is a General Trait
jklewis: Heck, everyone!
TomAnders: Strong Arm will become a Passing Trait (etc.)
AndyHall: Ok Guys, I'm off out toniight so I'm going to have to go and get ready.
AndyHall: Jim, Good!!
Scorch: Lizardmen jklewis :)
jklewis: Andy: thanks for coming!
Scorch: bye andy be well safe and happy :)
AndyHall: See you all, see you Monday Jervis.
TomAnders: JKL: Vampire
TomAnders: Thanks Andy
Death: I thought Andy already expressed his love for halflings ;)
Scorch: they refused more cus he was viscious than anything else jim
Jim: Bye Andy. Thanks!
Gregg: By Andy
Jervis: jklewis: I play Dark Elves, but my favorite team in terms of the background has to be the Lowdown Rats.
jklewis: I really enjoyed my Halfling team, because at the time no one knew how to stop them.
Stevenc: Unfortunately I have to check out. Milo: please save a log of the chat and post it tonight or tomorrow. thanks everyone.
Jervis: Bye Andy
Death: Thanks for coming Andy
Bevan: Jervis, is that why Rat Ogres are so good?
jklewis: They were called the "Brauberg Halfpints" and they were all named after beers.
Jim: Scorch, I know! I played him with my Dwarfs in my first season and I only had 1 guy left on the field at the end of the game!
Scorch: named after beers eh ,
Gregg: I thought the Lowdown Rats were originally a Goblin team.
jklewis: Scorch: There was Sam Adams, and Miller, and Dortmunder.
TomAnders: Jervis, team questions. I personally love seeing new teams added to the game, but the Bretonnian team in the BB Mag is one of the most overcosted teams that I've ever seen. Did this just get lifted from Compendium 3 or did it get played also.
Scorch: sounds like erich would like that idea jim , for the beers ?
Scorch: also over gifted tom
Death: Jim: I'm concerned the coaches in our league face the same fate when the Bloodthirster arrives. As commish, I'm considering chaning the unstable roll to be 4+ rather than 5+
Jim: Scorch, jk: yeah. One of our coaches has a Dwarf team that has all beer names for their players.
Scorch: the brettoonians (deliberate typo) were way too powerful as written
Jervis: TomAnders: The Questing Knights should cost 150K.
Scorch: especially with the bretons mage rules i think jervis
Jim: Death: It depends how many people want to play Daemon teams. Our league's only had one because the starting Chaos team is boring and doesn't win a lot. People get bored and switch teams most of the time.
Jervis: Scorch/Tom: I'll have a look at the Bretonnians again. I've not had much feedback about them, and never played them, so its hard to change at present.
Scorch: we have our own breton team in our league
TomAnders: Okay, here's a quick aside. Whether Jervis realizes it or not virturally all Blood Bowl teams that he has created fall in a 50k-60k bonus range.
Scorch: not that anyone has used it yet
jklewis: I'm happy to see that new teams are getting injected into the game. I think it expands the game in a good way and promotes more play.
Death: I am pleased that Daemon teams are more limited in their ally selection than standard chaos teams
Jim: Death: also that Khorne team that did play did so 3 or 4 seasons ago, so it's VERY rare for our league .
Bevan: Scorch, do the questing knights dominate the game?
TomAnders: By this I mean that if you run the player through his cost formula and then multiple by the number of positions allowed you come up with a team total of 50 to 60k.
Gregg: What kind of armour do these knights wear that allow them to move 7 squares?
Jervis: All: I'm going to have to go in 15 mins or so, so I'd like to raise a subject which I mentioned earlier on - encouraging the formation of leagues an the running of BB events. Now that we have BB and DZ back in print (well, we will next month) I think its time to start work on getting more people playing the game and setting up a good solid structure to support game play. What do you think?
Scorch: we dont use them bevan , my saurus' have shown what strength 4 starters with agility will do
TomAnders: The Bretonnian team total if you raise the cost of the Questing Knights to 150k is -110k. If you lower the cost of the Peasants to 30k, the team still only ends up with a team total of 10k
Razorwing: Ithilmar, maybe?
Jervis: And how could you help?
Scorch: good question gregg
jklewis: Jervis: I think it would help tremendously if you wrote an article about how to be a commish.
Death: Gregg, I agree, I found knights moving faster than amazons to be very odd!
Scorch: we constantly play in leagues jervis , jim and an bunch in south bend indiana
TomAnders: We'd need a gaming center in my area to get more players. The closest one is 45 minutes away.
Jervis: I think that the internet is really the key to getting people to play BB.
jklewis: Jervis: Additionaly I think you might want to get a list of all the programs that people have written for running a team/league and post them on your site (or at least link to them.)
Gregg: I will be running the FanatiCon Blood Bowl Tournament this February 17th in hayward, Wisconsin. I have traveled to many Cons and think this is a great way to prmote the game.
Scorch: thats how far i travel tom
Jim: Jervis: I'd love to see an effort to get more new coaches to join the game, but our area has been slowly losing interest.
Scorch: only once a week tho
jklewis: Lastly, I think creating an online place for people to host their leagues would do wonders for the game.
Razorwing: Hmmm, why do I have the feeling that someone is trying to recruit me into their sales force?
jklewis: Jervis: I agree. Internet is key.
TomAnders: Scorch: Yah, but my wife and my 1 and 4 years old don't like me to have to be gone 5 hours to play one game of BB.
Scorch: yes i can see that we lost one couple for similar reasons
Jervis: What I want to do is use the BB website as a point of focus for leagues and events. But I will need support from the hobby to get this working.
Death: Jervis: perhaps games day hosting a tournament of regional champions might be a fun idea
Gregg: I wil be happy to send info about our events.
Jervis: Razorwing: The success of BB and sales of BB are interlinked, you can't have one without the other. The question is, do you want to help make BB be as succesful as possible?
Scorch: games day without bloodbowl doesnt seem to support bloodbowl
Gregg: Is the actual BB website not running at the moment?
Jim: Jervis: I'd support Blood Bowl as much as possible. I have been for 3 years at least.
TomAnders: Well, yes most of us would like to make BB as successful as possible. I've found it interesting that BB seems to have more sites dedicated to it than most other board games out there.
Jervis: Gregg: That would be good - the same goes for the rest of you, please let us know about events and we'll tell other people.
Razorwing: Well, as a software developer, I don't make it a habit of recommending untested software. The same can be said for BB 4th ed. Until the BBMag2 (patch) is released, I will remain unmoved by all of this.
jklewis: Razorwing: You are a hard man, Razorwing. :-)
Scorch: yes razorwing i think more playtesting and tweaking is needed for 4th ed
Razorwing: But in general, Jervis, I certainly agree with you.
Jervis: You're a hard man Razorwing, but I'm sure we'll win you round in the end. After all, I did bring you BB in the first place ; )
jklewis: Jervis: I think a web presence is key.
Death: Scorch, I don't follow. My intent was to suggest a "tournament of champions" if you will at games day
Razorwing: This is true, too, JJ. :)
Bevan: The rules will need to be firmed up a bit if we want to run more national events.
TomAnders: And after having managed to collect all the editions of BB, Jervis "you've come a LOOOOng way"
Scorch: im just saying any bb at gamesday would help promote it
jklewis: I think with BBMag 2, thing will click into place. Jervis: What is needed for a national tournament?
Scorch: same with the other smaller scaled games , not just the ones in print
TomAnders: Now if I could just find the 12 1st edition BB miniatures, my collection would be complete. D*amn those are almost impossible to find.
Razorwing: Actually, the progression BB has made since 2nd ed. is rather impressive. And I certainly don't mean to slight your work, Jervis. None of us would be here in this chat room if not for your initial enthusiasm for this game.
Scorch: u mean the card ones tom ?
Jervis: Bevan: I think BBmag 2 will fix most of the problems.
Scorch: too rite razorwing
TomAnders: No, in 1987, Citadel actually produced 13 miniatures for use with BB 1st edition. This was before the 2nd edition and its miniatures were released. I have one of the 13, but the others are like digging for gold.
Jim: Scorch: there were actually 12 minis from the 1st edition, Tom's talking about those.
Death: I would love to see the top teams from our league take on the top teams from other leagues in some standard format
Scorch: oh i c
jklewis: Jervis: I appreciate you coming out to chat with us. I have never had another game designer take this much interest in a game before and I think that's overlooked too often.
Jervis: Razorwing: Don't worry, I know. One thing to bear in mind is that I do what I do because I love the games too. It's nice to make a living at it, but its not what drives me or what made me make those 4th edition changes.
TomAnders: I have a 1st edition Ogre (cost me $75), but everyone who has the other 12, refuse to sell.
Gregg: Jervis - Do you BBMAG 2 will be available by Feb. 17 for the U.S.'s first 4th Edition tournament at FanatiCon?
Scorch: i can imagine tom
Jim: Death: I would like to see that too. Might be fun and challenging. Gregg didn't you mention a tournament up there in Wisconsin, or are you the smae Gregg from the list.
Death: Jervis: is there any way these original 13 minis from the 1st edition might be re-released for a limited time by fanatic?
TomAnders: Scorch, if you want to see the 13 1st edition minis, you can at: http://www.midgardbb.com/BB1stEd/Minis1stED.html
Jervis: Gregg, email me about this and we'll talk.
jklewis: Gregg: I have a subscription from GW UK. There is a chance I will have a copy by the time I arrive at the convention.
Scorch: dont think i would ever sell my 1st version of golgfags ogres (blisterBOX)
Scorch: thank u tom
Jervis: Death: Yes there is, might take a while though...
TomAnders: Death, I doubt it. The molds are long gone.
Gregg: Yep the tournament up in Wisonsin is run by me. Check out the particulars at - www.win.bright.net/~mimi/fanaticon/
jklewis: Tom: Molds never go away... they can always make more.
Jervis: TomAnders: Quite a few old moulds still survive - it's knowing where to find them that is the difficult bit.
jklewis: Tom: (Molds, that is.)
TomAnders: WHAT ..... REALLY. Jervis don't kid about something like this. I just offered a guy $250 for all 12. I'll stop looking if there is a chance they would ever be reprinted.
Death: Jervis: I'll be one of the first to "advance order" if this happens!
jklewis: Well, I think we found what Tom want's for X-Mas.
Scorch: lol i think your rite jkl
Jim: Gregg: I might be able to play in that tournament. I live in Indiana, but I wouldn't mind making the trip.
TomAnders: Sorry, I spend way too much money on this game. I'm currently in the process of buying every White Dwarf that has pictures of or mentions Blood Bowl topics thats a several hundred dollar project also.
Gregg: We have some folks from Indiana coming planning to attend what may be the world's only Warhammer Quest Tournament!
TomAnders: I'm trying to get my web site to be the ultimate reference source for Blood Bowl's history.
Death: A Legens of Blood Bowl box (similar to the Heros of the Imperium from laster year) would be great!
Jim: Tom is one of the few people that I've met that's probably more into BB than I am. And that says a lot. Keep up the good work tom.
Scorch: jim have u seen the valparaiso group listed at gw ?
jklewis: Jervis: What new teams are coming up for the game. Team lists, not minitures?
Jervis: TomAnders: There is a chance the moulds still exist, as they are rarely destroyed. We are undertaking a joint Fanatic/MO project to pick out the best back-catalouge items and make them available again. This is going to take a _long_ time to sort out completely, and there will be some gaps. Don't expect anything to happen this side of Xmas.
Razorwing: Any new female teams?
Razorwing: (Besides the Amazons, of course.)
Jim: Scorch: Valparasio group!?! I'll have to check that out. Thanks.
TomAnders: I'll wait. I just dropped too much money on putting together a 23 player Fimir BB team. So I'll wait to see if you release a "Legend of Blood Bowl" set. Which I would have preorder as soon as announced.
Jervis: I'm sorry, but I have to go now. This has been a really good chat. Just remember, I am interested in your comments, so email me if you want to gt something off your chest. Most important of all, don't worry about Blood Bowl - between us we'll make the game just right.
Scorch: found them in one of the forums rather than the meet up section
Jim: How about a more general question. Is there plans for a new team.
Scorch: thank u jervis have a nice nite
Bevan: thanks Jervis
Razorwing: Thanks for stopping by, Jervis.
TomAnders: Thanks Jervis. Its good to have you back with the game.
jklewis: Thank you ver y much Jervis.
Death: Hey, how about a Sisters of Sigmar team, the thrower could start with the "Hail Mary" skill ;)
Jim: Bye jervis. Thanks again for joining us! Maybe do this again sometime.
Razorwing: lol Death
Scorch: lol death
jklewis: I'm sure we can get Jervis to come back by again soon.
Death: Thanks for your time Jervis
Jervis: Don't worry, I'll be back... Bye
Razorwing: I was thinking of a Sigmarite team .... the Hail Mary default skill sounds great! ; )
Gregg: Good Night Jervis! Many thanks.
TomAnders: JKL: Agreed. After the comments yesterday on the list, I was concerned of the mood of the chat group, but it went much better than I thought. (Still don't want to use OSPA though) ;-)
Bevan: I'm using Sigmarites as my Amazon team. They convert quite well. An official team would be nice.
Jim: Sisters of Sigmar. Hmmm. Why not?
Gregg: Jim - Jervis mentioned Lizardmen up next with possibly Khmeri and Bretonnian in the future.
Death: Razorwing, maybe we can collaborate via email on this?
Scorch: i think jim meant a new team list gregg
jklewis: I would really like a Sisters of Sigmar team... I wonder what they would play like?
Jim: Tom: I was kind of curious how bad it would get, but it was pretty calm.
jklewis: Yeah. I was worried too.
Gregg: Sisters.... That sounds interesting!
TomAnders: As a side note, if you haven't seen the Shadowforge Fantasy Female Football team, you got to. The figs are inexpensive, well done, and work great with Elf, Human, or Amazon teams.
Scorch: humans with good armor (average of 8)
jklewis: I like those figures.
Jim: Gregg, Scorch: Actually I was thinking aout new minis and/or new lists. Thanks for the info Gregg.
Death: Tom: agreed, I was worried about the hostility on the list yesterday
Razorwing: Indeed, Tom. Shadowforge does some nice work.
TomAnders: I use a set of Shadowforge figs for my Bright Crusaders team (using the YBBL Sickingly Good rules)
Death: I really like the shadowforge line, especially because they have coaching staff available!
[LOGIN] Bbcwebmaster
Scorch: shadowforge ?
Scorch: hi bbc :)
Gregg: Well, I have to put my little 'un to bed. Nice chatting with you all. Looking forward to meeting some of you at FanatiCon!!
Bevan: Tom how well do the Bright Crusaders play?
jklewis: I'm going to head out as well. I enjoyed being everyones comments. You ankeep on chatting, this room will stay open 24/7.
jklewis: Bye.
Jim: Talking about new teams, how about Witch Hunters? They gain frenzy against Chaos and Undead! Not a bad idea either.
Scorch: bye gregg be well
Bbcwebmaster: morning
Gregg: Andy - I am signing off and you just sign on!!
jklewis: Hey
Scorch: good idea jim
Bbcwebmaster: this is a weird chat room
jklewis: Yes.
[LOGIN] Bbcwebmaster
Scorch: thank u bbc
jklewis: What's up for you Andy?
Death: scorch: this is not an endorsemen of the store, but www.newwave.org has photos of the Shadowforge "grid iron" line
TomAnders: Bevan, actually I was never a big fouler and with IGMEOY, its no big loss. Getting SPPs for casulaties in fun, and being able to take stat increases on any double is great. Yah, you get pounded a little more than a normal team, but it new and different way of playing.
[LOGIN] Bbcwebmaster
Scorch: thanks death
Scorch: i fouled only with my chaosdwarves and when i was very much losing anyways
Death: take care everyone, and thanks to the chat organizers
Bbcwebmaster: yeah it just crashed my netscape
Bbcwebmaster: whats up everyone
Bbcwebmaster: I take it I Missed everything
Jim: Fouling hasn't been much of a problem in our league. Now Piling On is a different story.
TomAnders: Scorch: check out to see Babs Wood Elf Female Shadowforge team: http://www.geocities.com/blood-bowl/teampose.jpg
Jim: BB: yeah, Jervis just left.
Scorch: lol jim , i still think my lizardmen with lots of pile on would have been humorous , for me at least
Bbcwebmaster: damn that oversleeping
Scorch: sucks dont it bbc
Jim: Scorch: That would be a scary sight. Much worse than my Piling On Ogre or Jason's 2 PO Mummies.
Scorch: yes having 6 players doing it would have been excessive
Bbcwebmaster: well to take care of PO, just foul them while they are down
[LOGIN] Razorwing
Jim: McCoy's Norse team had 3 ST 3 Blitzers doing it, and that was painful, so Lizards would only be scarier
Scorch: that can get very expensive bbc
Bbcwebmaster: yeah
Scorch: especially with the new fouling rules
Jim: BB: That's the one weakness of PO. But if you use the IGMIOY fouling rules than it might be bad.
Bbcwebmaster: Jim:true true
Bbcwebmaster: we dont use IGMEOY
Jim: We haven't either. Our league doesn't foul enough to make it a rule.
TomAnders: Well the kids need lunch. See ya all. Hopefully, Jervis will release that Legends of BB set and save me a bunch on money. Talk to you all later. Jim, let me know when the SB league starts up again. I'd love to come playtest the Lycanthrope, Golem, or Elementalist teams that I working on for new articles.
Bbcwebmaster: yeah, in our league we foul only when it must be done, if that makes sense
Scorch: except for those pesky halflings jim
Bbcwebmaster: so how many are coming to the fanaticon?
Scorch: where and when bbc ?
Jim: Bye Tom, I'll keep you informed about when the league starts back up. See you later!
TomAnders: Razorwing, in case your curious, I added a page 3 to the Spirit team article based on some suggestions by JKL. The article should be ready to go the Fanatic by the end of next week (2 more figs to paint to finish the article).
Jim: Scorch: I really didn't foul a lot with them.
TomAnders: My next two articles that I'm going to work on are the rules for Galak Starscraper (Storm Giant Guest Referee) and the Wizards on the pitch rules from the MLAF with Milo and Duggage's suggestions
Scorch: true but perhaps some teams should be immune to igmeoy
TomAnders: Jim, did you ever see the Galak rules. Do you think that they would be good to write up as an article????
Bbcwebmaster: I will be at the fanaticon on Saturday and Sunday, I probably will show up on friday though
Jim: BB: I'm thinking about going to Fanaticon. Just depends if I'm free for that week.
Jim: Tom: I looked at them a while back. It could be a very cool idea. But he only moves 1 square a turn, right?
Bbcwebmaster: also If you did not know it I will be unveiling the new BBC then
Razorwing: Thanks, Tom. Have you re-posted the article to the internet?
Jim: New BBC site? Sounds good! I've been checking your site for that for a long time.
TomAnders: Do he comes onto the pitch, and the coaches take turns moving him until all the players involved in the gang up are hit. Some "innocent" bystanders can get hit in the path. Play stops until he has finished hitting everyone.
Bbcwebmaster: would everyone here want a sneak peak into the site?
Jim: BB: sure!
TomAnders: Razorwing: yes the article has been reposted
TomAnders: Andy, yes
Jim: Tom: You should submit it to Fanatic and see whatJervis says.
Bbcwebmaster: ok, I gotta get a small promise not to repost the link
TomAnders: Promise
Razorwing: Sure, Andy.
Pinkhorror: sure
Jim: OK Andy.
Bbcwebmaster: ok. here [URL CENSORED]
Bbcwebmaster: just let me know what you guys think of it so far
Jim: Thanks!
Scorch: thank u
Bbcwebmaster: if you guys hit reload it will make another image appear in the top left hand corner
[LOGIN] Razorwing
Scorch: looks very nice
TomAnders: That's cool. The graphics look good, and I've long admired the BBC.
Jim: Looks great.
TomAnders: Andy, your web site was one of the things that made me want to try to build my own Blood Bowl web site. Just wish I had more time to work on it.
Bbcwebmaster: cool, I am glad you all like it
TomAnders: I've put a lot on it, but there is always so much more that could be done. So I appreciate you taking the time to re-work your site.
Bbcwebmaster: it will return to its former glory
TomAnders: Okay, now I really should get going. Good job Andy. I'll look forward to seeing the new site in all its glory.
Jim: Yeah, I got a lot of cool info from your old site.
Bbcwebmaster: well I need to get going also I have to play someone in warhammer in an hour or so
Jim: Okay talk to you later Tom
Scorch: must be nice bbc
Scorch: i have groceries and laundry to do today
Bbcwebmaster: Yeah all of the info from teh old site will make a return along with a ton of new information
Jim: Okay Andy, bye.
Bbcwebmaster: later everyone
Jim: Hmmm. Anything else you guys want to talk about?
Scorch: bye bbc be well
Scorch: not till i see bb2 , always one magazine late
Jim: Yeah. Fanatic really underestimated how many people wanted BB MAG #1.
Scorch: very much so
Jim: Which forum did you say that Valpo group posted their announcement at? Scorch?
Scorch: well all i think its time for me to mosey and start those chores
Jim: Was it WH world at GW's site?
Scorch: bye for now ratz and jim
Jim: Bye scorch. It really slowed down after Andy and Jervis left.
Scorch: i think warhammer fantasy , they mainly play fantasy and 40k but mentioned some others
Jim: I guess I should leave too. Bye!
Jim: See you Friday Scorch.
Scorch: look for the topic northeast players , yep jim catch u later
Jim: Thanks.
[LOGIN] Elmo
[LOGIN] Elmo
[LOGIN] AnarchyAl
AnarchyAl: Yo, whatup homies
AnarchyAl: Whoop
AnarchyAl: Dang
[LOGIN] bjm
bjm: nobody's here
[LOGIN] Georgemoe
[LOGIN] jkarr
[LOGIN] mecki
mecki: hi milo, i missed the chat with jervis
mecki: will there be again a logfile od this chat?

Chat Ends